Change order costs??
Commenti (56)
jmm1837
6 anni faSo what changes is he actually trying to charge you for? You still haven't provided that info, and without it, no one can have a meaningful idea of what was and was not warranted.
pink_peony
6 anni faMy builder had change order price in his contract with deadlines as to when things could be changed by. This was a change order price plus the cost of the item I wanted changed. These were for "minor" changes. Examples changed tile for shower. Decided to add another electrical outlet etc. If it was anything of "major" then it was the change order cost plus cost plus labor. Those costs were presented and signed off on by me before being done.
PROUser
Autore originale6 anni faFor starters we went into demo without a set of plans, so this whole change order idea is very questionable to begin with. We had decided to develop the layout with the framer once the space was opened up and we could get a feel for it. So what he called a change order in my eyes was the design development, since I don’t know what else he did for the design development. Furthermore when I say minor changes I mean if we changed one thing it had an equal change that’s cost would be replaced. Instead of putting a Wall here, put it here, same number of walls, same materials just a different place, so I don’t see where the cost comes in that case. You all are so bent out of shape about knowing exactly what he was doing and what I’m asking is merely if someone bids $54,000 for a job and says the price “could go up or could go down” that after two weeks with no issues coming up should I except a $17k increase when there is no justification if you really look at A. The fact that the design was supposedly being developed so how could u be adding changes as if it was set in stone.
B. Proportionally the changes made should have had similar Budget increases as what they were replacing decreased the expenses.
And a better question is, in a case like this where I feel mY contractor has underbid the job and doing a bait and switch, trying to overcharge me now cause really he has me by the balls, how do I get out of this. This contractor took $17k and hasn’t don’t $17k worth of work, but won’t unless I pay him more money.hollybar
6 anni faYikes! I would not give that contractor another thin dime. Work toward an exit with this dude,i.e.,how much of your 17K will be returned. Yeah,you will be out some. But this all sounds like you will be out much more if you continue.
- PRO
User
Autore originale6 anni faThank you Hollybar, I agree. The contract says that “as more facts are discovered that the scope of work and the cost may go up or down” but the design development was in and of itself a cost saving measure to avoid paying for the architectural plans, and quite honestly I think the way it will turn out is better because I was able to be in the space and work directly with the framer rather then having some in an office sketch it out without knowing how the space really worked. The fact that this guy knew I was trying to save money was evident when he agreed to the work without blueprints or plans but then thrown out the door when we actually did the work. I had conceded to him a generous ammount of compensation and asked he return $4800 and now he won’t return my calls or texts. 
PROJAN MOYER
6 anni faUltima modifica: 6 anni faFail to plan, and plan to fail. Sorry. Waiting to get "a feel' for the space? This is a thing best planned on paper. That paper is your FEEL. That is unless you are married to the builder or contractor. You gave him nothing to accurately bid. Period.
You "saved" money without the arch......? Not so much.
User
6 anni faUltima modifica: 6 anni faOh, you’re that guy. You’re lucky if it only costs double. 17K for demo on some projects would be about right. No one can give you an up front price for an open ended unplanned project. And everything will be a change order post demo.
Unplanned, unpermitted, uninspected, uninsured.
Unrealistic.
- PRO
User
Autore originale6 anni faThis is what I’m talking about. Your industry is so fast to blame the consumer, just pay more and you’ll be fine, just have someone draw up arbitrary plans when he has no real sense of the use of space, rack up as much money as you can get out of someone even you know they’re on a budget. He shouldn’t have given me an estimate if in fact all ur saying is true but that fact is he did and that was how I came to my decision, don’t defend his actions that are obviously dishonest. I wouldn’t hire any one of you pros for the simple fact that you lack empathy and are failing to get past the minor stake you have in making him look less bad for the sake of ur industry by making me out to be cheap or irresponsible. The fact is he misled me, so get off ur high over priced horses and accept the fact that you’re in a shady industry if this is your peer. hollybar
6 anni faPaul Black,I understand your frustration and anger. Did you get other estimates? Did any of the other guys refuse to bid or just bid on a demo? Have you worked with this guy before? Worked with any other contractors? We have worked with a few and overall they have been pretty good guys. Among them, there are two that I would have trusted completely in a loosy-goosy scenario like yours. (of course,I can't imagine either agreeing to what you've described) IOW, I don't think you can tar a whole industry because of this shady contractor.
- PRO
User
Autore originale6 anni faI can agree with that, but it’s amazing the kind of response people from this industry give in defense of an indefensible action. Of course it would take me forever to go over all the intricacies of the relationship and the dynamics of every encounter and the reason I went with him truly had to do with him convincing me to choose him, him assuring me and the whole way that he portrayed himself, which seems is all a sham in fact. When your buying a house for the first time and you’re remodeling it there are emotions and excitement that far outshines any suspicion or suspension of doubt and that is what is the most disappointing is when you’re take advantage of in a moment of joy and excitement. He knew my situation, I was completely honest with him and whether you think it was cheap or irresponsible isn’t for you to judge and I don’t care if you think that anyway, what I did was what he agreed to do with me but he isn’t holding up his end, I don’t know how anyone could support a peer who treats people at their most vulnerable the way he has done me, literally left me unable to pay my bills. pink_peony
6 anni faHe may very well be a crook. But you are wrong in your entire approach. Sorry if the truth hurts and you choose to lash out on anyone willing to tell you the truth. I’m curious if your lack of planning and hiring also carried over to the research you did on the contractor you hired? Did you check three referrals (or more) of past jobs he did ? Did you check to make sure his license was in good standing? Did you make sure he pulled all the proper permits and inspections? Did you check with you town to see if he was in good standing and the BBB?
You can can sit here and blame the pros and the people in this industry all you want Paul. I’m not a pro but i know you don’t get anything for free and i know that you must do your due Dillingence before hiring a contractor. As i said in a previous post if there was no plan set forth but going in and ripping out things to see how you feel about them then there was no contract. Since you know so much about this field you probably could have saved yourself a lot of money by ripping everything out yourself gotten a feel for what you wanted then hired the architect to draw that up for you and gotten his plan set in Stone so it could be placed in an official contract that priced everything out within 10% of the cost.
KD
6 anni faOne of the things architects train for ages FOR is to be able to get a sense of the space from site visits and floor plans and understanding of history and development of building styles so that when they look at an interior, they see something very different from what we do. Then they train some more to work on skills of talking to clients to understand what they want and need and also what they DON’T want and need even if they don’t realize it yet. In addition they are supposed to stay on top of code requirements and recommendations for things like doorway dimensions and light switch heights and all sorts of other fiddle details that are actually critical to getting a plan approved and to pass inspection and most importantly to have a nice and functional house.
You hire an architect because a good one will actually understand the space BETTER THAN YOU in terms of what is already there and also what changes to make so it will work better for your needs. And they will know many many things you do not even know you don’t know that factor into that understanding and the creation of the plans that are ultimately used to do the work.
KD
6 anni faI would think that the thing to have done in your situation was really to have one contract for demo ONLY and an agreement that an additional contract will be negotiated once the scope of work could be established. So there would not be an open ended contract expecting changes, but a fixed task contract plus possibly a bit extra as a retainer pending the new contract. (I.e. you do something like pay for the demo as demo is completed, plus an additional $1000 so the contractor holds time open for the next stage of your job, to be considered already paid towards the balance of the next contract once it had been drawn up. If you didn’t come up with a new contract in a set period of time, then depending on certain conditions the $1000 is forfeit. That protects the contractor from you deciding last minute you don’t want to do more after demo when he’s expecting your job to continue and has turned down other jobs.) (I mean, you could still change contractor after demo, but you’d be out the $1000.) (I just picked that number at random. The amount would depend on many factors.)
I mean, I’m not a pro at all. But open ended vague contracts don’t really protect anyone.
pink_peony
6 anni faUltima modifica: 6 anni fayour last statement is confusing. Did he finish the job then charge you that $17k more you mentioned? Certainly you haven’t paid him in full for an imcomplete job? I’m afraid to your detriment the time to have argued the $17k was at the time of settlement for the job. You would have had the upper hand then and been able to withhold money from him.
- PRO
User
Autore originale6 anni faPirateFoxy, that would have been genius. I wish that I’d thought if it. As it is, I was paying him as a consultant. So he was taking an hourly rate. In my estimation the $17k was a deposit to be paid out to subs with proof of their cost in the form of a receipt. This all got fishy at his first progress report when he handed me a $15k increase in total price with no itemization. I was like “where is this coming from? How is this divided out?” And that was when the actual numbers started to not make sense. 
millworkman
6 anni fa""The contract says that “as more facts are discovered that the scope of work and the cost may go up or down”""
End of the story. You agreed to that and it is copen ended, did you really expect the cost to go down? Your signing that document gave him carte blanche to charge you these fees.
"What would I do without all this splendid advice, who knew there was such a wealth of holier than tho blow hards out there that don’t have anything better to do then write scathing criticisms of someone trying to carve a little niche out for himself without putting himself in the poor house. "
Not true, you just don't want to listen and anyone without a sympathetic ear willing to tell you are 100% correct in your mind is wrong.- PRO
JAN MOYER
6 anni faUltima modifica: 6 anni faNo . YOU didn't and don't know the scope of the work. That was the issue and is the problem
What do you want us to say? That you got screwed, ripped off, you are right and every person here, who ever did this stuff for a few decades or more is insane?
Talk about hot air..........
You didn't provide the scope, he didn't know the scope, and you signed an open ended contract. ......and he isn't here to present the other side.
Miranda33
6 anni faUltima modifica: 6 anni fa“don’t know how anyone could support a peer who treats people at their most vulnerable the way he has done me, literally left me unable to pay my bills.“
While I feel bad for you, you did come on here asking for validation and support when the fact is - and you should face facts in order to be able to strategize for next steps - that the issue rests at your feet. When I first did a kitchen reno decades ago, I was green as grass. Really and truly. But I still knew enough to have a specific plan in place, it’s common sense. You write well, better than most posters on here, which means you are bright. I think you are being disingenuous with this surprise about costs, and deep down you know it. Because you are bright, you must know that change orders with no real plans to begin with will cost a good deal of money.
If you are unable to pay your bills, you should not have taken on this project in the first place. Even the most impeccably managed renovation will have overages of 10-20% of initial estimate. Unplanned-for things always come up, even when the work has been meticulously planned to the last detail.
Sorry, but you need to take ownership of your lack of plans and seat-of-your-pants renovation. If I were you, I’d think myself lucky to have only $17k of overages. Given what you described, you could have easily ended up with several times that. We’ve seen that on this forum - people much deeper in the hole. Stop playing the violin, and blaming the contractor.
KD
6 anni fa@Miranda - I agree. That said, it does sound like the contractor doesn’t want to provide a breakdown of how he is arriving at the increased cost, which I do think is bad business. It need not be detailed to the last screw necessarily, but a client can not make reasonable decisions about what work to proceed with and what to leave out if they’re not being told “okay, your request to move this wall from here to there will cost $X because it requires more flooring material/more drywall/rerouting electrical and plumbing” or whatever. To do this kind of thing successfully there does need to be some willingness to help the client understand what is going on.
Personally, I suspect possibly there’s a degree of “wait, I don’t want to work with this client” markup involved. I.e. the contractor has realized he doesn’t want to continue the job, for whatever reason, and is TRYING to make the price unfriendly so they part ways. That does happen also. People don’t like to admit if they’re overfaced by a job, or if they’re having difficulty with a client, so they hope they can get the client to end the relationship so they don’t have to do it.
User
6 anni faUltima modifica: 6 anni faJust because you can't think in 3D doesn't mean that it's a mythical ability that doesn't exist in someone else. That happens to be a basic job requirement for an architect or designer. And they have the technological tools that allow you to see what they can imagine. On the front end. Before the demolition occurs.
If you had bothered to consult with an architect or designer before you set out to destroy your home, you would not be in the predicament where you are facing a lien, foreclosure, bankruptcy, or to live in an uninhabitable space. Or a combination of all of those scenarios.
You'd better focus on structurally stabilizing the space and live in it as is until you can afford to actually do a project of that magnitude. It is not a 50K project. It is not even a 100K project "just" to rearrange all of the walls.
Your extreme naïveté about construction procedures and costs is showing. You could have had professional design assistance and guidance through the whole process, which minimizes change orders. Instead, you chose to do an entire project as a series of open ended change orders. One after the other. That takes an already expensive project and increases the costs by at least 50%, right off the bat.
And it also quadruples the time needed to do it, even if the design solution presents itself immediately.But there is no end in sight to either the time or the money here. Because that is how you structured things from the beginning. And that is not how any construction project ever works if there is a finite budget involved.
This is on you for sure. But any contractor who entered into such a relationship ought to have his head examined! Which is why it is unlikely that you are dealing with a genuine licensed contractor here. No good contractor does a job without pulling permits. Permits cannot be pulled without construction documents. Which you don't have.
You paid some guy 17K to make your house uninhabitable and uninsurable. If your homeowners insurance gets wind if this, they will cancel you in a heartbeat. And your bank will call your mortgage.
If you have equity in the home, you may need to get a HELOC and get this completed. If you don't have equity, you are in a very tough spot. You may need a private loan. Any thoughts of making bing forward on this need to be erased until you satisfy your debt with the contractor and can afford to do an actual completed project. Which will be more than double what you have been quoted.
SJ McCarthy
6 anni faUltima modifica: 6 anni faI'm just going to set out a FEW of the quotes by Paul Black....just to get them all in one spot. Here are the one's that caught my eye...and I'll explain WHY they caught my eye.
1. "For starters we went into demo without a set of plans..." OK. That's a big red flag for every professional worth their salt. Going into demolition without plans is a sure fire way to create a 'money pit'. The upcharges that started only a few weeks later indicate this to be a "Truth" in the building industry - not just an opinion. See below.
2. "When his guys did demo, for the first time I saw the extent to which the
blow in insulation had been compromised by a past rodent infestation
and it was disgusting." So they IMMEDIATELY found issues - and did not know how extensive nor how much REMEDIATION would be required before putting in the insulation (which you removed from their scope of work). That's why they needed a few weeks for this part. But you chose to move forward with another bid for insulation.3. "...that after two weeks with no issues coming up should I except a $17k
increase when there is no justification..." Actually the rodent infestation and damage was in fact a BIG issue. I'm sorry but rodent damage isn't just about teeth biting through wires. It is about the urine soaked walls (highly noxious = horrible for indoor air quality and can cause serious infections...Hantavirus anyone?) and rodent corpses in the walls. The "need a few weeks" to get things straight was appropriate for this issue (have to call in a mitigation company, assess full damage, come up with a plan for insulation, order materials, have mitigation completed and repairs to fixtures completed, etc). At this point, I realized that the concept of 'no issues' is inaccurate to the point of being dangerous.4. "As it is, I was paying him as a consultant. So he was taking an hourly rate..." There aren't many General Contractors who are design consultants. There are a few....but I'm not sure what he was "consulting" on. So who would be the General Contractor if the General Contractor was only a consultant?
5. "...but the design development was in and of itself a cost saving measure
to avoid paying for the architectural plans, and quite honestly I think
the way it will turn out is better because I was able to be in the space
and work directly with the framer...". Uh Oh. Framers are not designers nor architects. They are not the people who pull permits. Framers work from blue prints (to save their butts should anything legal occur) and those blue prints are given to them (and verbal instructions) from the General Contractor. I'm not very confident about a framer's ability to do things to code...especially if it is off the cuff and without prints.- 6. "Instead of putting a Wall here, put it here, same number of walls, same
materials just a different place, so I don’t see where the cost comes in
that case...", and here is where things get REALLY scary for me. You have a beam construction (the crawlspace tells me that). This means it can be a big deal (structurally) to move wall 'A' to a new position. The STRUCTURAL requirements (the stuff holding up said wall) could be compromised should you want to move it. When position 'A' was chosen, it is very possible the structure in that location was "just fine". But that same wall moved to position 'B' might cause massive problems with the structural integrity of the home once moved to that position. Structural reinforcing can be thousands of dollars - just ask anyone who puts in a 25 foot beam in their house so they can have an 'open concept' living space.
All of the above information tells me that your knowledge of the building industry is horribly inaccurate and out of step with the realities of the job requirements.
It sounds like the two of you (yourself and the GC) are 'done' with each other. I'm sorry to say but the $17K that you have paid will be your penalty for "breaking the contract". I know that is a lot of money for you. You can try to get some back....but the courts are not going to be too generous because the contract is so porous.
I think at this point, you will be better off to find a company that is a Design Build Company with Architects on speed dial. They will sit down with you for HOURS figuring out what can be done with your space. They will have to create the prints and the design before they start. You will sign off on them. They will have to deal with the remediation of the rodent infestation and come up with a plan for insulation.
I'm sorry but your 'off the cuff' approach hasn't worked and it has cost time and money...neither of which seem to be something you can afford. It is a very expensive mistake (I think it is fair to say it was a mistake on EVERYONE'S PART to enter into this agreement...yours and the 'consultant' General Contractor). I think a clean break and then a new - proper - approach would be the best for you. A clearly defined contract and scope of project will help you create the space you want within a budget you can manage.
- 6. "Instead of putting a Wall here, put it here, same number of walls, same
KD
6 anni faWould it be reasonable to do demo only first in a situation where you know there has been considerable damage? Ex. A home that was significantly flooded. It just seems like it’d be difficult to make good plans on choosing finishes and so on without a clear understanding of the scope of the damage? How does that sort of process usually work?
(I say choosing finishes and that sort of thing because that is an area with most room for making more budget-friendly choices. You need drywall, you need structurally sound walls and floors. What you then put on those surfaces can be cheaper or more expensive depending on what’s left in the budget. Likewise how many cabinets you have in a kitchen - you can do bare minimum or add more depending on what your budget is going to look like. But you need to know how much remediation and repair is needed to know your budget.)
lindacottonwood
6 anni faI feel for you I really do. It is not pleasant to lose money. You could have avoided this had you gone about it another way. It is hard when we have to learn tough lessons. The 17,000 is minor compared to what it could have been.
My husband and I found a lot and decided to build. I have a lot of knowledge in the area as my Dad was a builder. When we decided to proceed I immediately called my Son who is a General Contractor and flew him in to check everything out. I set up appointments with 3 different General Contractors, 3 different Banks and a time to look over the property. Why would I pay money just to have someone interview people? Because my husband and I are on a fixed budget, don't have the expertise to understand all that is involved in the project and to not have happened what happened to you. Start over, find a qualified individual to guide you and listen to them. Good luck.
- PRO
User
Autore originale6 anni faThank you Lindacottonwood, that was a nice comment. When you’re in a position where your trying to make every dollar go as far as it can sometimes getting multiple designers and contractors to give you an assessment just isn’t in the budget and I paid him to come up with the estimate and he gave me a number that considering I thought he was willing to work with me on the payment schedule, I thought was fair. But once I couldn’t give him more money, (again, a fact that he was well aware of) until I sold my condo he completely pulled his guys and literally wouldn’t talk to me on the phone until I gave him more money. I don’t want to get into it and give the trolls anything to latch their nubby hands on so I’ll stop but yes I will def take your advice. Thank you User
6 anni faI’m your boss and due to some financial difficulties with the company, I’m not giving you your paycheck until we sell off some assets that are underutilized. We figure that might take a month. Maybe two, tops.
3-4 months go by without you getting paid. What do you do? Keep going to work? Ask them if they have fire sale prices on those items for sale? Start hounding them for those 4 months of pay they owe you? All of the above?
You probaby do not keep going in to work and keep piling up more unpaid paychecks. You probably find another job.
Do you not get how not paying someone means that you are yet again the source of a major problem here? Even if someone agrees to defer some payment. It comes due!
You can definitely expect a lien on the house.
PROLakeside Architecture Inc.
6 anni faChange orders need to be approved by the owner before they are completed. That is the purpose of a change order. It authorizes and makes all parties aware of the change in scope and costs of the project.
jmm1837
6 anni faLakeside - if you go back and read the earlier comments from the OP, you will come across this: "For starters we went into demo without a set of plans, so this whole change order idea is very questionable to begin with."
To my mind, the OP got himself into trouble because his project had no scope or proper costing. I'm sorry that he went into this so unprepared, but I can't really blame the builder either for charging for everything that hadn't been laid down in clear detail by the OP from the start. No one can make a coherent bid on a project that hasn't been defined.
PROJoseph Corlett, LLC
6 anni fa"... with Architects on speed dial."
That's funny right there.
Paul:
You've admitted your contract says the price could go up or down. It went up just like it said it may. How much more clear can it be?- PRO
JAN MOYER
6 anni faUltima modifica: 6 anni faWhy are you here Mr. Black? You know all there is to know of everything, architecture, space planning, "winging it" ,change orders, process, payment , contracts, insults, the works. Have at it.
teamaltese
6 anni faYou page says you are a Pro, decorating and design, but you went in without drawn plans, and you don’t know how change orders work? You might want to delete this whole thread, because I wouldn’t hire a pro with this level of ignorance.- PRO
User
Autore originale6 anni faLakeside, I completely agree with you and your post in a rational and understandable response. It is correct that rather then after the work was done he comes to me and tells me this is another $15k, he should have A. Properly bid the job because all or the things that were “added” were definitely within the scope we had discussed(which I’ll get to) or B. Warned me before they did the work.
When I said we didn’t have plans I meant architectural drawings and blueprints, but there was a clear plan set Forth with the framer, who was awesome, and never during the three days that they were framing did I ask for any “change” that wasn’t in fact merely an alteration to what was already predetermined or anything the framer had anything but a positive response to. I know enough about this stuff to know what is difficult and what is simple and from the beginning I had designed the job to make use of preexisting features in the home, this was not a difficult job and the changes didn’t warrant the price adjustment which would have brought just the budget for light demo(literally a few walls) and framing to $32,000!!! I could have framed a whole house for that!!! 
gtcircus
6 anni faIn most states, there are remodeling laws that require changes over $500 to be in writing and agreed to by both parties, it is called the statute of frauds and for a reason. For the downside the contractor can file a lien, but he has to be able to prove the cost of the changes were as much as he says they are. Sounds to me like its time to get with a lawyer to find out what the law is in your state.User
6 anni faUltima modifica: 6 anni faSome of the other side. The response from the teviewed business to the review written by the OP. This is why businesses love whacky reviews. They look ever so sane and reasonable in comparison.
"This guy wrote us a ~$5,000 bad check and then tried to use that bad check as leverage against us for negotiation and backing out of a large-sum contract. We stopped the work. He then made pointed and personal remarks about an employee's family and his personality traits, and even threatened 'a visit' to their home address which he had obtained underhandedly online. We consulted the police about this and they were concerned. For the safety of employees, we were advised to file a police report for harassing and stalking. We did, and we hope this scary behavior will end soon for everyone's sake. And businesses have employees with the license. So to all our Houzz followers and potential clients - please see our other reviews, and please let us know if you have any questions about this."
gtcircus
6 anni faUltima modifica: 6 anni faI don’t know how writing a bad check is leverage for the homeowner - as the check is over $500, the bad check writier committed a FELONY and therefore it is a matter for the State’s Attorney/District Attorney who should be filing charges. The leverage GreenDesigns is with you because I would be stopping work, filing a lien and filing a criminal complaint for the bad check UNLESS the check writer made good on the check and paid any bank charges. That is the difference between a mistake and a felony. AND if that is coupled with stalking and other criminal behavior you are dealing with a nut job (mental hygiene code)
- PRO
Joseph Corlett, LLC
6 anni fa"...I had designed the job to make use of preexisting features in the home, this was not a difficult job..."
Nothing, and I mean not even knowing the client is a lawyer, or even an engineer, sends me running for the hills faster than a potential that assesses how difficult a job will be for me. - PRO
JAN MOYER
6 anni faUltima modifica: 6 anni faGuys? Maybe Take it OFF LINE. Not doing either of you any good. Go see Judge Judy. That's an episode I will watch
User
6 anni faUltima modifica: 6 anni faUm, I'm not Thomas. I've been on GW for years. I just posted the response that the business had to the whackjob review. It's pretty clear who is unstable here. Just read that review. And now he's stalking me!
chindman39
6 anni faWhen we built our addition, any changes discussed were drawn up and initialed in red ink with an $ value assigned. That way no surprises were realized. When we had other work done (outside of the scope of our addition, again changes were written down and signed in red ink, There were no surprises at the end. We also paid 1/3 down, 1/3 when job was 1/2 completed, and the final 1/3 when job was completed. Everyone happy.
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pink_peony