Storing scion wood in freezer
This winter looks pretty promising now we are almost into it. I was wondering if anybody has ever stored scion wood harvested now in freezer over the winter. Last year I was successful burrying some but the buds were all moisture damaged. I was wondering if I couldn't just take pretty moist paper towel and wrap up in zip lock and freeze. i cannot keep wood long in fridge without mould issues .
Commenti (46)
ubro
7 anni faThis fall I took a few scions , packed them in damp peat in a plastic container and put it in the freezer. I understand that the scions have to go thru the required chilling process before they will be successful. That means the required number of chill hours per fruit type at no higher than 7C but not below freezing.
So although I intend to keep the scions frozen to make sure they do not mould, I will have to take them out and store in a fridge sometime in the late winter so the chill requirements are met. I think for apples that is around 1000 hours so about 41 days.
I hope someone else has done this and can give you better information on if it actually works or not.
mattpf (zone4)
Autore originale7 anni faIt worked outside for me last winter. They would have been frozen solid in the ground until spring I uncovered and put in fridge. Only issue burrying was the buds all died due to moisture damage and moulded . The scions grew after but not that much.
hungryfrozencanuck
7 anni faMatt, have you tried doing a 10% bleach bath then rinsing with fresh water prior to storage? Worked for me last year for scions received mid January (not sure when Konrad actually cut them) and then the apples grafted mid april and plums grafted mid may.
Also, any chance I could buy some scions of Westcot, Capilano and Riley from you if you have any to spare? Just "Follow" me and send me a PM.
Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
7 anni faI found it's important to do the 10% bleach/cold water and little soap wash and rinse treatment and seal ends when shipping and storing in fridge. The scion I cut prior when sending. I usually wait for a warm spill with above 0 degree temperature when cutting scion...it's better this way to prevent too drastic fluctuating in temp. shock for the scion. Have been receiving scion in November and they're good until I graft in May...over 6 month.
I've stressed this to Hungry but you're still sending to me without this treatment. No wonder, most of the wood was useless last year.
ubro
7 anni faKonrad, so you have found that sealing the ends helps with storage? I have to send some scions out, and I am considering bringing some to the Devon exchange in Alberta this spring. How do you suggest I wrap them for the sale?
hungryfrozencanuck
7 anni faHi Konrad, sorry for not bleaching before sending. With work I have very little time right now and I cut and shipped the same day so I figured a 4-5 day delay from arrival to you and you bleach them would not be a big deal. Last year you said you did not bleach the scion wood you sent me, just sealed the ends, and said it would be good for a couple weeks. They all grew nicely for me but you cut them January I believe. Last year I cut the scions feb 29 which means they were exposed to -32 C for 2 weeks early feb. This year I cut Jan 22 before any really cold temps. Hope they work better for you this time around. I can also send bud wood in summer if you want to try bud grafting instead.
Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
7 anni faUltima modifica: 7 anni faI'm probably being a dick and overacting here with hungry...I'm not really sure why your wood deteriorated so fast...I should have disinfected and seal ends, perhaps make a fresh cut back a little. Normally ...prior to shipping I do the bleach treatment and seal.
Last year we had more warm spills and it don't take long for scion go bad in the mail...sometimes very warm. I find it's just as important to seal ends for long term storage.
Most of the problem when scion goes bad fast it when too damp or wet.
I know it's extra work but well worth it, this is how I do it ...take a large zip lock and put the 10% bleach cold water with little soap in, only about a cup full, put a bunch of scion in, zip bag close an do a swish/wash/splash/shake..only about 10 seconds, take out, cold rinse and put on a clean paper towel which was put on a disinfected counter top or board, put scion side by side on paper towel, put another towel over, do another batch if you have and put on top of towel ...and son on, letting them dry a little then seal ends. You can light a candle and dip into melted wax beside the wick or heat up some paraffin in a pan...not too hot. During the process make sure your hands are always sterile. When done I usually use that same zip lock bag rinsed out, shake out water, little wet is fine and put the scion inside with the same paper towels, no extra water added...paper towel still feels dry to the touch but it's better...wet would not be good and damp is still too wet also.
If you have cut them already for the exchange then you can do as said above.
Most of my scion for the exchange are not stored this long, maybe 2 to 3 weeks, then I seal ends only.
hungryfrozencanuck
7 anni faHey man, no problem. I want to give the best chance of grafts taking. Sucks to loose a year. Especially when your wood grew so well.
In the future I'll be sure to treat prior to shipping even it it adds a day or two delay. Let me know how it looks when it arrives and I can always send a 2nd shipment.
Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
7 anni faOK thanks!
Another thing which helps.. sending the wood monday morning as soon Canada post opens, [for me it's 9 AM] this way you usually get it the same week.
Your wood coming to me now can sit in a warm post office for the weekend.
hungryfrozencanuck
7 anni faYep, that is what I did but they only send mail to depot at 17h00 so I loose a day no matter what. Had hoped it would have gotten to you on Friday.
Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
7 anni faYou told me, "It will be posted tomorrow afternoon" This would make sense for 5 pm, a day lost for sure, I sent 9 AM monday and you got it Friday.
Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
7 anni faUltima modifica: 7 anni faIf I send it from town of Beaumont where I'm at, [city over 10'000] I'll loose a day, so I drop it off in the City of Edmonton.
hungryfrozencanuck
7 anni faSo my scions to Konrad arrived yesterday and were put in the fridge and he collected them today. Some mold was evident already!
Scions were harvested Sunday Jan 22, ends wrapped in parafilm and placed in ziplock with dry paper towel with a couple drops water. Air removed from ziplock and placed in fridge. Removed from fridge and mailed at postoffice Monday Jan 23 by regular post. Arrived Monday Jan 30 and placed in fridge. Photo from today Jan 31.
So in future I will for sure do the 10% bleach wash, soap wash, then water rinse and wrap ends. I will also ship express post instead of standard. Learning experience. This is only my 2nd year grafting/cutting scions. When ordering scions I will pay extra for express shipping. Loosing a year of growth is just not worth it.Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
7 anni faNow you see the importance.... in my experience.. if treated with 10% bleach wash and shipped on the dry side it can stay good for several weeks...had wood from far places in the mail for 6 weeks and hadn't had mold yet. Did the wash on yours with fresh cuts and sealed...should be good. The paper towel you put in was a little too damp ...would have been OK if done the bleach wash, also sterile bag and hands.
mattpf (zone4)
Autore originale7 anni faUltima modifica: 7 anni faI get mould and dip in bleach wash or use paint brush and hydrogen peroxide. Or hydrogen peroxide mix . I use hydrogen peroixde when grafting because I can dip my fingers and tools into it to clean bleach is a bit hardcore but even better in my option for sterilization
I think if the scion deteriorated that easy they were probably dead tips before you snipped them. Sometimes a hard winter frost will wipe out the branch it will appear green and alive until June or July even if left on the tree.jocelynpei
7 anni faAh, somebody else who uses hydrogen peroxide, grin. I don't post here often, as I'm on PEI, too warm for most in this forum. I have chestnut scions in the fridge from October some years, and graft as late as May, with takes. I store in damp paper towel and soak in hydrogen peroxide before use. Would bleach be better? Perhaps fruit trees are different than chestnuts?
geobaerg
7 anni faHi I have a question about cutting storage. Most of the articles online say you can keep the cuttings in a normal fridge at temps of 35 to 40 F (1 to 5 C). I have a fridge for my seeds and cuttings but I am finding that it is very difficult to get uniform temperatures below 5C. So often after 2 months some of the buds will start to break. Any thoughts, methods etc?
alcan_nw
7 anni fa"Most of the articles online say you can keep the cuttings in a normal fridge at temps of 35 to 40 F (1 to 5 C)"
In many cases this (above) is true, other things don't last long at those temps.
I have been freezing scionwood in a freezer chest consecutively for many years 25-30F (high range of freezing). I know this can be a challenge to accomplish. I use a small chest freezer with a hole and temperature controller sensor located half way up and wire it to cycle the plug by an electrician (I am one).
I never seal ends or have to make sterile, but (frozen up) this is preventing the wake-up process of the scion as well as any possible diseases that may be already occurring inside the scion. It works great even for scions of very small slender types like pin cherry.
geobaerg
7 anni faThanks alcan, do you store them with anything moist, ie. damp paper towel, rag etc?
jocelynpei
7 anni faI think Alcan is onto something. The Forestry dept here takes scions in winter and packs them in snow in a chest freezer. They said the scions must be a little dry, or the cold will injure them. They did not give the temperature they hold the scions. I keep mine in the back of the fridge, and they freeze from time to time, but not constantly. Mine, the ones in storage right now, were cut the first week of November, when I was where the trees are. None have budded, and I have grafted a few, which are swelling but not really started yet. Since I do this most years and they take, it works.
alcan_nw
7 anni fa"They said the scions must be a little dry"
When freezing I make sure I never make any moisture around them too. When I first started the method of freezing I found out it is a mistake to stand scions vertically. The basal portion had a bit of water that froze. By the end of storage time that little bit of water had turned into a big chunk of ice and the scions had each dried so were dead. Everything else that had been packed and laid horizontally were just fine. These are also the reasons I am afraid to leave any residue of protection around the scions or the ends as others have suggested for my fear of what I think is H2O osmosis. (ie. water migrating to a solid surface)
As stated before, I am just an electrician and some of my terminology could be wrong.
jocelynpei
7 anni faIf your grafts grow, you are fine :)
I suspect many self taught folks do them differently, and as long as it works, it's great.alcan_nw
7 anni faUltima modifica: 7 anni faMy original problem stemmed from failing sweet cherry grafting whom told me buds develop too fast "if above 32F be as close to 32 as you can" (unquote)... from a propagator.
"Thanks alcan, do you store them with anything moist, ie. damp paper towel, rag etc?"
No water when freezing geobaerg, this is just straight from a dry tree into slim containers, or thin wood like pin cherry I just manage to film wrap first then in there secondly. Ends of containers sealed of course. I like wiper blade containers of the right type.
geobaerg
7 anni faSo in terms of chilling hours, do you later warm the cuttings in order to accumulate the required chilling hours or do they graft ok without doing that?
alcan_nw
7 anni faFor me they always work without doing that probably because I pay attention about collecting them deeper into the dormancy period which will vary as to which month depending where or how high in elevation you collect them.
Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
7 anni faUltima modifica: 7 anni fa>>I have been freezing scionwood in a freezer chest consecutively for many years 25-30F (high range of freezing)<<
alcan, yes..around minus 2 to minus 5C is good but not all folks are electricians. Makes me wonder, if your freezing works this great... these dead cherry scion I got from you last year which you froze solid in water...what was the idea behind?
I've done such a thing in the past with only dead scion's.
Bury into the ground, [box] with snow on top on the north side of house would be my Joyce, they stay slightly frozen. That's how the Russian's do it. A normal deep freezer is around minus 20C and this would be too cold for too long.
alcan_nw
7 anni faIt was more than a year ago and can't remember why so wet. Maybe from somebody else? Help me remember but I do remember learning from you about danger from wet pear scions and learning this from Bernie too. This is the value of experience about moisture we pass on from experts to new people.
My sources that give me confidence in storing even small diameter scions were Mr. Purvis, Mr. J. Lehman, (both NAFEX experts) and my own experiments. Now if I ever fail on my own or gifts to others it's because of not having the proper time and patience sometimes. So if it was me, sorry.
How do you think about the question asked about chill hours? My opinion is that chill hours are met at this point in time everywhere. My other concern is hardly any of us see is that trees carry viruses. Not so sure all of them create much a problem about quality or size of the fruit, but I know sources of viral infection can make a graft fail. At home orchard society volunteer grafting sessions I am the only one on the row asking all prunus grafts go to me because I am the only one changing knives on each customer.
25 years ago I made about every mistake with plants or grafting that anyone can make.
Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
7 anni faUltima modifica: 7 anni faWell yeah... at the last year's scion wood exchange, the hybrid cherry [just checked the mail from last year with you about wet scion] you gave me cherry scion which was swimming in a plastic bag filled with water after it thawed out. But...you didn't know anymore, [and me] that I got the same cultivar from you about 5 month earlier when you came visiting me and we cut some scion. The hybrid cherry scion you had in a plastic container, [no water] which I kept in the fridge and took perfectly after grafting. One season growth now. So...fridge does work good for me.
Clean wipe your tools with 10% bleach ones in a while.
mattpf (zone4)
Autore originale7 anni faYou guys .... I cut branches and lay on the ground in the garden they get exposed to an entire winter and parts of fall and spring . They definitely were exposed to minus 20-30 and graft fine the following year . I did not wrap in plastic or anything. When something is dry there is little to no chance of bacteria being on it especially a branch. It's your fingers and hands that contaminate. When you harvest scion wood you can dip your blades in what ever you want as long as you touch it with your hands you can almost guarantee it will rot in the fridge faster . And if you put one dead winter killed branch in the bag with the others which happens commonly it will rot also. Best practice is to simply harvest the wood late as possible in early spring than you don't have to worry about it.
This is why I asked the question do they keep in the freezer ok. I'm sure there are many factors in doing successfully. My though about this was because nothing mould or rots when frozen. I'm going to snip some wood next week when it's minus 10-15 and I'll put in freezer and report back in the summer.
Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
7 anni fa>>i cannot keep wood long in fridge without mould issues .<<
I've covered this problem when storing long term in the fridge.
>>This is why I asked the question do they keep in the freezer ok.<<
Also been tested by many...not good for long term but you might be fine when cutting now.
On the ground they never get exposed to harsh temp. for long like they would in the deep freezer.
alcan_nw
7 anni faUltima modifica: 7 anni faFreezing at very deep temperatures at long term has been worked out with a few guidelines in mind to google as follows;
"Cryopreservation of Vegetative Dormant Winter Buds"
Can anybody believe hands carry fungal rot per above (matt?). Show the research.
Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
7 anni fa
Cryopreservation ...aw....I don't think we go there lol.freezing tissue in liquid nitrogen at -148 degrees Fahrenheit.
mattpf (zone4)
Autore originale7 anni faUltima modifica: 7 anni faI don't have scientific research to back up the claim of fungal rot just speculation based off of my experiences. I'm not sure how many things in my fridge produce fungal rot but they do and it usually doesn't happen until it's been opened and handled . Maybe there is a relationship to handling and bacteria or maybe it's simply just decomposition process.
Even with bleach bath or hydrogen perioxde baths scions still mould . Ive had very good luck when not putting anything for moisture. Simply clipped off tree and sealed in clean zip lock handled with clean hands seems to work pretty good. Once moisture is added in form of moist paper towel or bleach bath mold seems inevitable in my fridge.
mattpf (zone4)
Autore originale7 anni faUltima modifica: 7 anni faAlcan I think one would just have to touch a spore to transmit mold by hands. I think fungus is probably commonly spread by hands and disturbance . I've had to deal with toxic mold remediation a few times on job sites I've done large renovations on. I know it's very easy to transfer spores all it takes is moisture and disturbance . We use bleach sprays once an area is discovered without disturbing it .
I can't prove if it's from touching a branch outside or from spores in my fridge from something else previously rotted. There is most likely fungus and spores all over in our gardens and even already on the scions we cut. Mold needs moisture so it adds up in my opinion. Spores can stay dormant for a long time . It only takes a single spore on a branch or transmitted by hands and a damp paper towel and few weeks later you'll have a bag of moldy scions.
alcan_nw
7 anni faI think I see where you are going with that Matt. For a while since you said "You guys" last Saturday that you were referring to us (Konrad and I) as an injustice to you for cleaning knives unnecessarily, which isn't the case. You can remove and stop water loving organisms by dry conditions or freezing which we all 3 are on the same page (as we should) and 100% happy now.
With that ironed out I see a slight problems having scions stored in the fridge above freezing other than the harmful effects formerly mentioned regarding proliferation of mold etc. above freezing. It is that storing scionwood in the fridge there is no sun, with no photosynthesis going on into the buds or thin layer of bark into the phloem underneath, my hypothesis is that the scions become more lacking in the ability to hold the external attack at bay compared to those left above freezing outdoors in the sun.
I see bacterias and fungal infections as opportunists that operate and proliferate at their peak during a stress to the plant. The plant (scion) is wounded the moment you cut it. Set back a second time again when removed from light. One solution therefore is to freeze and keep these invasions sleeping.
I can show the research when I'm not tired but I believe one of the botanists name is Kotovich who proves young tree branches do pass light through the thin bark and there really is physiology there.
jocelynpei
7 anni faI have scions from Nov 3rd in the fridge and am getting takes on potted stocks right now. They were cut or picked off the ground and stored pretty dry. The second shelf at the back in my fridge is the coldest. Since the bread bags of scions are collectively wrapped in damp newspaper, it's easy to see that the paper is stiff in the mornings. It's all in another bread bag, so the paper says damp, but freezing is easily seen. I suspect we all do things differently, but if it works, it's OK. Don't get too hung up on what someone else does, it works for them, grin. If what you are doing works for you, keep doing it, unless you feel experimental and want to see if something else works too. We have wood heat, so mornings are cold here in the winter, and fridge contents usually freeze on that second shelf :) Perhaps your house has oil fired central heating, and this doesn't apply. That's fine, do what works at your house. I'm Ok with scions in long storage, and also Ok with scions picked off the ground. I suspect the dry cold is what saves them, grin.
ubro
7 anni faInteresting thread my scions in the freezer packed in damp peat moss all died. Looked like they did not mould but just froze.
jocelynpei
7 anni faIt might have been to cold. Mine freeze, but just, stiff paper wrapping, frozen, but probably only a few degrees of frost. The drier they are, the more cold they can handle. Fluctuating temperatures seem to help scions harden off too...think outdoors. A second beer fridge, turned down real low and kept in the porch or cellar might be just below freezing. That's all you really need....just below freezing. The vegie crisper is often warmer than the rest of the fridge too, so a thermometer in the fridge might help you find that sweet spot.
This scion was taken Nov 3rd, and the graft was done Feb 10th. it's still nice and green inside.
ubro
7 anni faThanks for the link alcan frost protection is interesting especially when you live in a cold area like I do.
I put the scions from the freezer into my cold room to thaw which took a few days as the temp in there hovers around 5-10C. I usually don't worry about storage, but an unexpected snowfall of 16" broke branches of a few special fruit trees so I wanted to save the scions.
thanks jocelypei my fridge crisper keeps around 2C, I have a themometer in it and I am learned to keep the moisture down which seems to help.
Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
7 anni faUltima modifica: 7 anni faYes..generally the coolest place in your fridge is in the crisper...cold air sinks.
mattpf (zone4)
Autore originale7 anni faUltima modifica: 7 anni faWell I'm happy to have learned from this thread. I did not realize the branch will loose hardiness when it's cut off the tree dormant
geobaerg
7 anni faIt will lose hardiness if you store it in a warmer place than where it was before you cut it.
jocelynpei
7 anni faWell, perhaps you'll have good luck. :) I have a thermometer in my fridge too. It's handy if the coldest spot isn't where it generally is located.
I didn't know about the lost hardiness either. I knew that trees that are borderline hardy here will often not leaf if we had a January thaw, but I hadn't thought about scions that way. Fun to learn new stuff.
jocelynpei
6 anni faUltima modifica: 6 anni fa
Update, grin...I have green tip on a scion from a frozen twig. It's a chestnut, so may apply only to fagacea types, but after folks talked about freezing, I tried one. It was frozen just a little, top shelf of the fridge, right under the freezer, propped up next to the cold, minus 3 on the thermometer...........about 2 weeks frozen.
PROBorealis Landscape & Design DBA Skipley Farm
4 anni faSkipley farm here, I collect and ship my scionwood sometimes directly from the tree but most of the time I store dry in ziplock bags, 10 to 40 in a bag, refridgerated 32-38 deg. F. I've always added a ~3x5" sheet of paper towel splashed (not dripping) with 5% bleach water. Only once in 7 years did I have mold in 1 of 80 bags. Packed in fridge fairly tightly and then accessed a few times per month helps stir-up the air around them (guessing here). I think it's really important that scionwood stay dry but humid. A hydrometer would be useful as I really want to be able to store in open containers and access more easily in a walk-in type room. For me easy access is accomplished here in Western Washington by storing open air (without plastic bags) 95% of the time as we tend to have perfect refrigerator temps and humidity.
I hold, sell and graft these into June with 98% success from a January-February cutting. I live and farm in Snohomish WA where winter temps are typically 41 degrees with coldest around 10 deg F. I grow about 300 varieties -mostly apples.
It's a lot of work maintaining 300 varieties. Procuring, storing, shipping earns about $12/hr.-a good income in the off season. Gil
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alcan_nw